Music: Music
Craig: Hello, welcome to the Kinky Boys podcast. I'm Craig.
Arzurh: And I'm Arzer.
Craig: And today we will be talking about all the aspects of cigar play.
Craig: I'm very excited about this and I'm pleased to announce we have a very wonderful
Craig: guest, the president of the Manchester Leatherman, Sir Tony.
Tony: Hi guys. Hi.
Arzurh: Pleasure to have you with me.
Tony: Thank you. Nice to be here.
Craig: Thank you. I've been wanting you on for a while and yes, so we're here to talk
Craig: about cigar play. But first, why don't you tell us a bit about yourself?
Craig: Who are you? How long have you been in the scene?
Tony: Okay, so I'm Tony, otherwise known as Daddy T. I've been on the leather scene
Tony: for over 20 years. Let's put it that way.
Tony: I started at quite a young age in London.
Tony: So started when London had a fantastic leather scene.
Tony: So when we had the Colchrane, we had the original block, the LA, the Anvil.
Tony: Later on we had hoist which started off in one one arch so yeah i've been around
Tony: the leather scene for a few years always see it being very much dominant at
Tony: the top so even though i started at quite a young age so sort of cigar play
Tony: falls in with that really nicely brilliant.
Craig: So how did you first get into cigar play was it something that's always been there or
Tony: Did you was.
Craig: It one of those fetishes where you experience it or see it and you think oh
Craig: i i'd quite like to try that But
Tony: To be honest, it's interesting because my dad was a heavy smoker in terms of cigarettes.
Tony: So any form of smoking never really liked.
Tony: It was never really a turn on for me. I actually didn't get into even smoking
Tony: with girls until quite close to my 40th birthday.
Tony: And it was, I was drunk out with friends, smoking, and I said, let me try one.
Tony: And it was, for me, what was interesting about him, because I was,
Tony: I've always been a very anti-smoking person.
Tony: Eventually, my dad died of health complications due to the smoking.
Tony: It was something that really, really against. So never really saw it as a fetish.
Tony: Never really interested me.
Tony: Yet, as soon as I picked up a cigar, especially in leather, it just,
Tony: the two just go together so well.
Tony: And quite quickly, when you're in full leather smoking cigars,
Tony: it seemed to attract boys who like smoking cigars.
Arzurh: Funny how that works
Tony: It is it's a bit weird how that works isn't
Tony: it and so the first thing for me was finding
Tony: that boys would like to do things like lick my
Tony: boots while i'm while i was smoking and and
Tony: the fact that i was smoking was a big turnover so in
Tony: terms of my first intensive play it was
Tony: very much really basic i'll smoke while you do stuff to me and i'm guessing
Tony: that's how most people get into it so whereas you know later on you can there's
Tony: lots of other stuff that you can do with cigars but at first it's more what
Tony: people would do to you why you spent oh yeah i mean.
Craig: It's such a classic leatherman visual just you know the full bluff bluff gear
Craig: and just smoking away on the big rolled up cigar it it's a very charged image you
Tony: Know it's it's something I think that I sort of, a lot of my leather fetish,
Tony: my leather fantasies come from the fact that, believe it or not,
Tony: my parents ran a country and Western club.
Arzurh: So I'm sorry to laugh as an American.
Arzurh: It's always when someone says we have a country and Western bar in London,
Arzurh: it always is like there's actually a British pub in California that I've been to.
Arzurh: And I'm like, this feels a little like crossing the streams.
Tony: It is a bit. Oh, for massive country and Western fans.
Tony: And they used to have pretty much every other week a different band,
Tony: country and Western band staying at the house. So the house would be full of
Tony: big bears, often wearing leather waistcoats and sometimes chaps.
Tony: Yeah, I wonder where my taste comes from.
Tony: Yeah, so leather and cigars is something that's, for me, that's always gone together.
Craig: Brilliant. So when did you start shifting away from just the visual of it and
Craig: actually using them in play?
Craig: I mean, how did that start? Did you learn from someone?
Tony: No i don't think it was such a sort of conscious decision
Tony: i i think the first time that i ashed
Tony: a boy was the fact that i was smoking and fucking
Tony: him and my ash fell on his back i think that was the discovery point and because
Tony: he really enjoyed it you're eager he's exactly it's one of those and then you
Tony: sort of realize that actually this is really hot and the fact that the more
Tony: i use he's back as an ashtray,
Tony: then the hard he's provided me.
Tony: So, you know, we're sweeping the game together.
Craig: That sounds like a nice visual. And one thing about visuals I've always wanted
Craig: to ask. So, is a cigar always just a cigar?
Craig: To very badly misquote Freud.
Tony: Oh, oh god. Freudian psychology. Never ask a behavioral psychologist about Freudian psychology.
Arzurh: Would you prefer if we pivoted to Jung instead?
Tony: No, Skinner. That's awesome.
Tony: Please, at least, Pavlov, when we go into conditioning, we've gone off on a
Tony: completely wrong tack here, haven't we?
Tony: It's a singular family.
Arzurh: It's very dear to our heart. Anyway, my boy is a psychologist.
Arzurh: He has his doctorate. And believe it or not, he is right now sitting for his
Arzurh: licensure exam. So it's very timely.
Craig: I mean, I would like to have your boy on sometime to talk about this.
Craig: And Tony, you as well, since you have a background in psychology,
Craig: I would love to do a whole episode just dedicated to the psychology behind king confetti in general
Tony: Okay wouldn't have it sounds.
Arzurh: Like a good it sounds like a good episode in the making
Tony: Just let me have one.
Craig: But yeah i mean do you think it
Craig: is basically a big visual metaphor because i can't help feeling this because
Craig: i always see people especially on the internet they always seem to go for the
Craig: huge cigar and i've actually come across people that photoshop the cigars to
Craig: look bigger than they actually are and i just can't get away from okay i think
Craig: we all know what's going on here and
Arzurh: I have a friend who's into cigar play i have seen him put cigars into his mouth
Arzurh: where literally i i wondered how he's able to breathe at all it's about jawbreaker
Tony: Size yeah they're generally what he gave they they they look almost comedic
Tony: it's is it a phallic symbol i think it's more,
Tony: personally it's not phallic to me although even
Tony: i've used cigars to fuck hoys with and so
Tony: i don't see it necessarily as a phallic symbol in
Tony: any it's just but maybe that's just what my brain works
Tony: i don't see people eating bananas as a as a
Tony: phallic thing either it's just a banana but i
Tony: think it's the i think it's the the the larger the cigar to an extent because
Tony: sometimes they do start to the larger the cigar it looks more manly or aesthetically
Tony: pleasing because if you smaller cigars especially historically tended to be spoken by ladies yeah.
Arzurh: Like cigarillos and the like
Tony: Absolutely so effeminate it was so the larger the cigar therefore more masculinity
Tony: i think if there's a there's a connection to masculinity the larger the hit with large cigars yeah.
Craig: I mean classically in society cigars have been some statuses of power you know
Craig: you have the business men and the rich
Tony: Yeah and they were largest larger gauge cigars yeah rather than cigarello well this.
Arzurh: Actually uh brings us up to uh our next question so you you have these cigars
Arzurh: of varying sizes and uh one would assume varying qualities we've gone a bit
Arzurh: over hot ash what What other types of activities do you typically engage with,
Arzurh: like smoke exchange, for example?
Tony: Yes, smoke exchange is one of my favorite things to do with cigars.
Tony: And there's so many ways to do that. Obviously, there's mouth to mouth, which is very common.
Tony: And while you're basically kissing, snogging.
Tony: You can have a mouthful of smoke and at the end of it, you both blow that smoke
Tony: out and that's really hot.
Tony: Oh yes. And then you've got the other ways of doing it, which are more forced ways of doing it.
Tony: So things like simply a gas mask with a tube and make it boys smoke through that.
Tony: That can become really heavy, really quickly. So depending on the boy's ability
Tony: and how used they are to doing that, you will send a boy green very quickly.
Tony: Clean if you do that and they're not used to it and unless
Tony: you're into puke play it's probably not going
Tony: to be the scene that you've been looking for but so it
Tony: also becomes a form of breath control at that point because the
Tony: the smoke itself is actually reducing the amount of oxygen and therefore
Tony: by reducing the amount of oxygen you get a high from it and one of the things
Tony: that lots of people don't realize is the actual not just the the nicotine buzz
Tony: that you get from smoking cigars but it's also slightly reducing the malaroxin.
Tony: You get a little bit of a high from that as well.
Tony: And cigar smoking as a smoker, what you get out of it is, yes,
Tony: it's the look, it's the taste of it, but it's also, it gives you such a nice buzz.
Tony: And so if you want that to play, it's not enough of a buzz to stop you being able to think clearly.
Tony: So it's not going to affect your ability as a topist and it's not going to affect.
Tony: Scent, but at the same time, it can give the player a really nice buzz and a really good feeling.
Tony: So, but yeah, so, so any form of sharing of smoke, whether that's mouth to mouth
Tony: or any form of apparatus where you've got them, it's very sexy.
Tony: So again, it's, and that can be both ends.
Tony: I've, I've had boys where I've put spectrums up them and blown hot smoke up
Tony: their ass as well well they can hold that the.
Arzurh: One and only good context to blow smoke up someone's ass
Tony: Yeah maybe
Tony: i just took the same to you literally but yeah so
Tony: in terms of the in terms of i
Tony: think there's three parts to cigars there's obviously the
Tony: physical cigar itself and that that
Tony: the smell of that the feel of that the the
Tony: insertion of that is part of the play there's the
Tony: the smoke and how you can
Tony: have someone take that smoke into their body
Tony: whether that be through the nose through their
Tony: mouth through their anus and then you put the ash and ash
Tony: is really when you start to look at
Tony: ash is the hot warmer ash
Tony: putting that on the body is a sensation play putting
Tony: that on your boots dropping ash on
Tony: your boots and making your boy lick that off your boots that's
Tony: about the taste the feel of the ash and
Tony: also the feeling being controlled and made
Tony: to do something that's quite that's very submissive being it by being made to
Tony: lick ash off someone's boot that they've just dropped on their boot so it's
Tony: so sweet it's really in terms of play it's those three parts of cigars that you get to play with now.
Arzurh: We're talking about cigars in sort of a generic way right now.
Arzurh: Are there any sort of brand or types that are better for certain activities than others?
Tony: So when you start to talk about brands and type,
Tony: cigars are a bit like wine it's about it's
Tony: about the flavor it's about the body of them and and that means
Tony: it's a lot of it's very individual people actually
Tony: enjoy what people like is very
Tony: individual so and even down to you
Tony: can take the same cigar and at a
Tony: different level of humidity it will taste different so
Tony: you you then get into the different types of
Tony: cigars but also how moist you keep those cigars
Tony: because that in a game will change the flavor there
Tony: are general rules of thumb the two
Tony: things about cigars that to bear in mind if you're choosing
Tony: cigars as i said it's about taste as a
Tony: rule of thumb the darker the cigar the stronger
Tony: the flavor there are exceptions to that but the most
Tony: part that's you if you pick up a cigar and it's
Tony: a really dark cigar and you can smell it it's almost
Tony: chocolatey probably if you're
Tony: new to cigars that may be a little strong for
Tony: where you want to start the other thing about cigars is
Tony: the gauge it's the size of the cigar and you said.
Tony: About the you know the huge gauges and and some
Tony: of those are you know they're very difficult to
Tony: find now in fact one of the major manufacturers that actually stopped
Tony: making them the 140 gauges when most
Tony: when you look at most cigar guys smoking the larger
Tony: cigars they tend to be 70 80 gauge and basically
Tony: what that means i talk about gauge it means how many
Tony: times a cigar is rolled so okay so basically
Tony: the old myth of them being rolled on virgin's knees is a myth and they're rolled
Tony: on a piece of leather or the hand-rolled ones and but how many times that you
Tony: roll the cigar in in the tobacco is literally the the gauge that we're talking
Tony: about So when you talk about the larger gauges,
Tony: most people who spend larger gauges will be 70 or 80 gauge because that's a
Tony: really nice, and that's my favorite gauge.
Tony: 70 is my favorite brand personally.
Tony: I like Asylum, Asylum 13.
Tony: It gets those for me, that's the, in terms of flavor, in terms of size, they're fantastic.
Tony: Um, it depends what, what are the things that will vary as well is where the,
Tony: where in the world you are, because it's what you can get hold of and also price.
Tony: So one of the things that here in the UK, trying to get hold of cigars,
Tony: largely aged cigars is virtually impossible without importing them.
Tony: And even if you when you do get hold of cigars the actual cost of them in the
Tony: uk is horrendous they are red they expensive.
Arzurh: Well that's the case just about everywhere though it's the whole idea of the
Arzurh: the quote-unquote syntax which is not a programming thing but but rather an
Arzurh: attempt to assign a financial cost to behaviors that society finds to be either
Arzurh: detrimental or suboptimal in some way.
Arzurh: I know that because here in Washington state, they imposed a tax on hard liquor
Arzurh: that's so high, it adds about 30% to the value of any hard liquor product you buy.
Arzurh: And you really don't want to know how much cannabis is taxed at.
Arzurh: Cannabis is taxed at an astronomical rate.
Arzurh: So tobacco is in that family of things that sort of The Oliver Cromwell set
Arzurh: seems to feel should be financially de-incentivized.
Tony: We're the same here.
Craig: Yeah, the UK is largely very much the same.
Tony: But in terms of, if you think about Europe, Europe is not really that dissimilar to America.
Tony: Whereas in Europe, you can go from country to country and the taxes vary in
Tony: the same way that you can go from state to state.
Tony: So I know in, for example, in Illinois, people drive across to Michigan because
Tony: the tax on tobacco is so much lower than it is in Illinois.
Tony: And so it does in the same way I import my cigars from Germany because the tax
Tony: on cigars in Germany is much, much lower.
Tony: And because it's within Europe, I don't have to pay import taxes.
Arzurh: That brings up an interesting point I hadn't considered. Are there any outlets
Arzurh: you would recommend as being better for purchasing cigars than others?
Arzurh: Terms of pricing or availability?
Tony: I mean, personally, I use Seiko, which is the Hamburger Cigarren.
Tony: It's an online shop based in Germany. As I say, I import them from them because
Tony: I don't have to pay the tax.
Tony: I've used Atlantic cigars based in the US.
Tony: The trouble is then you get, If the tax man finds you that you're in trying
Tony: to import them, we are heavily taxed on them.
Tony: So to be honest, it really is about, in terms of whichever country you're in,
Tony: asking around, trying to find out, recommend.
Tony: And I mean, the U.S. is interesting as well because it seems to,
Tony: I used to travel across the U.S. in my last job this year.
Tony: I actually managed to my 25th state, so I'm halfway through. and Louisiana.
Tony: It seems to vary from state to state in how easy or hard it is to get larger gauge cigars.
Tony: And I think that's affected by the tax, but it's also affected by the culture.
Tony: Texas, for example, it's really easy to get much larger gauge cigars because
Tony: it's much more part of the Texan culture.
Tony: Whereas if you go up to Washington State, it's much harder to get larger gauge cigars.
Arzurh: There's there's an there's an odd correlation in this uh country between how
Arzurh: liberal a state is and how hard it is to get a hold of things that people find
Arzurh: to be scientifically uh bad for your health it's very odd the more liberal they
Arzurh: are the more restrictive they are
Tony: Yeah i'm not yeah and that's probably why you've got to a point where it's very
Tony: restrictive and uh Yeah, it's, you know,
Tony: so let's say it's, for me, it's, it, it really is about asking around whichever
Tony: country you're based in.
Tony: If you're based in, you're, I'll say that the website uses, you know,
Tony: I'll spell it for you, it's H-A-C-I-C-O dot, um, they've been really good.
Tony: I, I get my, um, my sign-up schizos from them.
Tony: Um, I pay around 70 euros for box 20, which for us is really cheap, really cheap. Um.
Tony: It's, it really, and again, I found that out from, from recommendations from friends.
Tony: So really it's about just trying to find out from friends where they get their cigars.
Tony: If you see someone's big cigar and you like the look of it, ask what it's,
Tony: what brand it is, ask where they get it from.
Tony: It's a great way of sparking up a conversation. And it's also a great way of
Tony: learning more about cigars and, and different people's tastes.
Tony: If you try if you buy thinking of
Tony: buying a box of cigars i'd always suggesting ordering
Tony: a single one first try it before
Tony: you buy it because you don't want to end up buying a box of large gauge cigars
Tony: especially if you're new to smoking cigars and you and i say smoking cigars
Tony: not smoking cigarettes because it's entirely different but if you're new to
Tony: smoking cigars then you probably want to start on a smaller gauge,
Tony: you probably want to try the cigar first to see if you could, if you actually like it.
Tony: And so buy a single, get it delivered. And then if you like it,
Tony: go buy a box, but it's, it's a much better way of doing it.
Tony: And when you do start, do start on the smaller gauges.
Tony: So if you don't, if you're, if you, you probably wouldn't want to go as low
Tony: as something like a Cigarello, but maybe something like a Churchill,
Tony: maybe a 64 gauge and, and also shorter.
Tony: So you're talking four inches rather than say seven inches.
Tony: So in the smaller and shorter, what that does is enable you to just build up
Tony: your tolerance of the tobacco, tolerance of the taste.
Tony: And again, as I say, it's very different from cigar smoking, so cigarette smoking.
Tony: And whenever you see, you can always tell a cigarette smoker when they first
Tony: start smoking a cigar because they'll try and smoke it like they do a cigarette.
Tony: And basically choke within seconds because they're trying to take all of that
Tony: smoke into their lungs in the way that they do with the cigarette.
Tony: And then, and their lungs can't cope with it.
Tony: And whereas cigar smokers smoke, take the smoke into their, into their mouth,
Tony: a certain small amount will end up in the lungs.
Tony: But the majority of it's, it's about flavor, it's about the taste.
Tony: So it's, it's more about, it's more in the mouth than it is in the lungs.
Arzurh: I would imagine that also decreases your risk of lung cancer.
Tony: Decreases your risk of lung cancer, it can increase your risk of totems where
Tony: life is, you know, life increases your risk of dying.
Arzurh: By a hundred percent, I'm told.
Tony: I remember I've done Chinese martial arts all my life and my old Taoist teacher
Tony: of mine said, if you gave up drinking, gave up having sex so much,
Tony: gave up smoking, you'd live longer.
Tony: And my response was, yes, but why would I want to? i.
Craig: Think the best way i've heard it put is you end up existing longer but you're not living longer
Tony: Exactly yeah now.
Craig: I've been learning from you and your boy
Tony: About how.
Craig: To get started cigars and a lot of the websites i've seen offer selection packs
Tony: Yep with.
Craig: All the different flavors would you recommend like say after you've had your
Craig: first cigar you've decided you you do like it you want to try it with those
Craig: selection packs be a like the next point on just to see which flavors you like
Tony: Absolutely and again ask for
Tony: ask for recommendations for people ask what they like ask
Tony: what they've tried and it's that expression yes tuck
Tony: it and see you've got to try it let's see what see what
Tony: you like but even with the selection packs again smaller gauge shorter ones
Tony: if possible build up your tolerance to it before you start you don't want to
Tony: go and buy a selection pack of 70 gauges some you know seven seven inches long
Tony: 70 gauges and then fight you never And I think they've smoked one of them without turning green.
Tony: And I say that because I've seen friends do that.
Tony: And it's almost, for one of them, it almost put him off smoking cigars.
Tony: And so, because he wanted to smoke the same cigars that we were smoking. And that's nice.
Tony: But at the same time, realistically, it's like anything.
Tony: Your body has to build up a tolerance to it. Your body has to be able to adapt.
Tony: And so jumping in the deep end isn't going to help and it's not,
Tony: it's not going to be pleasant when you're turning green. Never.
Craig: I imagine not.
Craig: I think that's a good point to bring up. So a lot of people do where they swallow
Craig: ash. Is that something you have to learn and practice?
Tony: So let's be, just to be clear about when you say swallow ash.
Tony: So I mentioned about things like licking ash off of someone's boots.
Tony: Yep. That's very cold ash. That's very different to taking hot ash.
Tony: So again, there's a difference between the two.
Tony: The great thing about ash is it's very inert.
Tony: It's burnt. it's not you know you're not
Tony: going to catch anything from ash because it's literally sterile because
Tony: it's been burnt so that's the good side
Tony: the the thing about ash when you're
Tony: first learning to take her um it's about
Tony: having a lot of liquid in your mouth it's not said it's
Tony: it's a bit like sure you've seen fire eaters and
Tony: how they're able to take you know put balls of fire
Tony: out into in their mouth because they've got a lot of licking in their
Tony: mouth that's the trick to it and so taking ash is it's no different what ash
Tony: will do to your mouth very quickly is dry your mouth out especially if you're
Tony: saying licking ash off boots um so you've got to keep washing your mouth through
Tony: whether you're washing mouth through with water or just saliva but it's keeping your mouth,
Tony: quite moist because otherwise you you'll be like a cat coughing up a furball quite quickly.
Arzurh: Yeah not so hot
Tony: It's not really no but in
Tony: terms of and again getting used to take ash if
Tony: i if i know a boy is is experienced at taking ash i'm gonna be far less careful
Tony: about the ash that i give them i'm not saying i'm gonna you know i'm not gonna
Tony: be putting a cigar out on their tongue but if a boy is very new to it i'm gonna
Tony: be giving them really really you know cold ash
Tony: just to get used to being able to take that in their mouth and say thank you for it, of course.
Craig: Of course.
Tony: But in terms of, um, it's, it's like any, any kink, you can take it to extremes
Tony: and some people want very hot ash to a point of, some people want to be burned by the cigar.
Tony: Um, in the same way that some people play with, with cigarettes and want to
Tony: be burned with cigarettes.
Tony: It's not my thing. You know, I'm not going to yuck for these yum,
Tony: if that's what it's consensual and it, it tickles their pickle.
Tony: But it's not something that i do
Tony: but so i'm i want the boy to
Tony: take the ash i want the boy to enjoy the ash but i'm not looking to burn the
Tony: boy and cause any lasting damage and that's and some of that is also about knowing
Tony: how how much the boy can take for their experiences so they know how to keep
Tony: enough moisture in them to stop that from burning them brilliant.
Craig: I think that should lead us nicely on to we
Craig: always like to talk about safety aspects and go through a big list of the checklist
Craig: of the do's and don'ts and what you've got to be careful so obviously we've
Craig: covered the fact that ash is hot and you're dealing with potential burning of
Craig: the skin or whatever and you know it's basically heat play
Tony: Yeah can be yes yes not always but it can be and but it's when you're flicking
Tony: ash the thing is to to make the more that the ash is spread out.
Arzurh: The more it is,
Tony: It's less likely to burn. So if you flick ash over a boy's back,
Tony: say you're fucking them and you flick ash over their back, that ash,
Tony: in terms of sensation play, will make them feel hot, but it's not enough to
Tony: burn them because it cools down really quickly,
Tony: because it's broken up into small pieces.
Craig: So a lot like wax play then, even though it gives the sensation of heat because of the rate it
Tony: Cools and disperses.
Craig: It makes it quite safe
Tony: Yeah exactly and again but if you
Tony: if you if you put a large clump of very hot
Tony: ash on someone's back that's going to burn they may want that
Tony: that's about consent in terms
Tony: of so when i'm ashing it's about spreading that hot ash over them because they'll
Tony: get that initial sense of heat but it goes really quickly and it's not even
Tony: enough i'm i like body i like bears it's not enough the chair you won't you
Tony: won't be you know getting that,
Tony: singed bear smell it's not gonna it's not gonna do anything like that so.
Arzurh: So not like when i wander into the kitchen
Tony: No it shouldn't it shouldn't unless you're unless it's what you want and it's
Tony: by consent let's say doesn't tickle my pickle so.
Craig: One thing we've wondered is is it best to ask if they have any health conditions,
Craig: like with their lungs, say asthma before play.
Craig: Cause I imagine it would be quite an irritant if like you're doing breath play
Craig: and smoke play with them and they suddenly start having an asthma attack.
Tony: Absolutely. Of course. I mean, it's like any form of BDSM. It's about communication.
Tony: It's about consent and you know, knowing that someone has a health issue is very useful.
Tony: It doesn't stop you playing.
Tony: It may change how you play so you may not want to do
Tony: you may not want to give someone smoke through a
Tony: gas mask if they've got asthma problems but then
Tony: there's nothing to stop them licking ash off your boots for
Tony: example you just play in a different way and and
Tony: of course it's the aesthetic thing as well so they may not want to
Tony: unknown boys who don't want to take the smoke
Tony: they're not into having that you can't not even
Tony: medical reasons they just don't like to take the smoke but at
Tony: the same time they love to
Tony: you know to lick us those boots or
Tony: something while they're smoking and that's
Tony: for them that's a very different kink but it's still
Tony: the cigar play if you want is still involved in that kink but it's just it's
Tony: more aesthetic than it is tactile or or you know they're actually coming into
Tony: contact with the cigar itself or the smoke or the ash so it really does depend
Tony: on what people are into, what terms are on about cigars.
Tony: And also, you're right, any health issues have to be discussed in the same way
Tony: they would be if you've, in any other form of BDSM. Nice.
Craig: So in the States, I know there's a big event called Smoke Out.
Tony: Yes, fantastic.
Craig: Have you been?
Tony: I have. It's held in Las Vegas and it's about 600 guys.
Tony: They hire out one of the, a venue called, and off the top of my head, it's Alexis Park.
Tony: It's opposite the Hard Rock Cafe Hotel.
Tony: So it's very close to Strip and on the Strip. Really nice venue.
Tony: There's a lot of guys, especially directly into American affairs, soaking cigars.
Tony: Yeah, I would highly recommend it. Yeah.
Tony: Really hot it really really hot and.
Craig: Does the uk or europe have a sort of equivalent
Tony: So we have smoking nights so
Tony: for example back in london has one we've had some in manchester we don't have
Tony: a smoking event in the same way that is i think smoke out is almost quite unique
Tony: in that but at the same time you will find at any large event you will find people smoking cigars,
Tony: So whether that's Folsom Europe, whether it's Manchester Leather Weekend,
Tony: in any large event in Europe, you're going to find people smoking cigars in
Tony: the same way as you do in the US.
Tony: It's, I think there's a more, it's interesting because it's,
Tony: again, it goes, when you, whenever you go to the US, depending on which area
Tony: you're in, it seems to, it seems to be more and less prevalent.
Tony: So I was at, I was in, I've got the name's gone out of my head. new orleans for god.
Craig: Mardi gras that's the only thing i associate with new orleans
Arzurh: Oh wait there's another there's another event too i'm i think i know the one
Arzurh: you mean it's not mardi gras
Tony: No it's people.
Arzurh: Used to come back to texas all the time and tell me about it now completely blanked on it
Tony: Wow i'm getting old completely if
Tony: you don't know what it's called anyway so that what was
Tony: interesting thing was going there this year how few people I saw smoking cigars
Tony: it just and how many people came up to me and were talking about the fact that
Tony: I was smoking a cigar and that's it's just again I think it seems to be different parts of the U.S.
Tony: Seems to be more common than others and I think
Tony: I think like everywhere the the health effects of smoking mostly from cigarettes
Tony: has percolated into the culture and it's people start seeing people smoking
Tony: and therefore big cigars and just think that's just a lung disease,
Tony: lung cancer waiting to happen really and,
Tony: And I think there's also a lot of preconceptions around cigar smokers and cigar playing.
Arzurh: Not to interrupt, but by the way, the event we were trying to remember is Southern Decadence.
Tony: You should remember it. I'd say I was there this year. I missed three days because
Tony: I was transferring flights in Houston.
Tony: And I just, sorry, I just couldn't remember the event.
Arzurh: Yeah, Houston has a comparable event, by the way. Louis, let us entertain you.
Tony: Oh, really? Comparable to smoke care?
Arzurh: Well, comparable to Southern Decadence.
Tony: It's coming to the US, not just for the big bears, but less of them.
Tony: But yeah, as I say, it seems to be different places you go to in places in the US.
Tony: Whereas I think in Europe, maybe because it's smaller, you go to any of the
Tony: leather, particularly leather events, and there will be guys smoking cigars.
Tony: It seems to be less favorable in rubber. and i think that's because a hot ash
Tony: smoke you know hot ash and rubber don't tend to go very well together and also
Tony: smoking outside in rubber in cold weather doesn't seem to go very well either rubber.
Arzurh: Can also hold smells too
Tony: Yeah that's true so so does leather actually that's some another part of cigar
Tony: play that i i should have mentioned is the leather gloves yeah the smell of
Tony: leather the gloves where you've been smoking cigars.
Tony: I literally have had a guy who I started to gom him in a play club in Birmingham.
Tony: And he basically went, I'm sorry, I'm done.
Tony: He's shot in his pants.
Craig: Wow.
Tony: Just from the combination of the smell of leather and cigar.
Arzurh: Achievement unlocked.
Craig: I mean, it's a gorgeous, gorgeous smell when a guy has smoky gloves.
Tony: Yeah.
Craig: I, as you can tell, I am one of these people that it just really gets me.
Craig: I mean, I'm very scent based in general.
Craig: So leather, cigar smoke, it all.
Arzurh: Yeah.
Tony: Yeah. I don't know why that didn't look good for me earlier,
Tony: but yes, it's that, that gombing.
Tony: If guys are into gombing, then adding that smoke to the leather really,
Tony: really does, I think heighten that smell and make it even stronger and I think
Tony: the heat also brings out the smell of the leather so the leather smell is stronger
Tony: combine that with the smell of cigars,
Tony: and the smell of cigarettes is disgusting it's horrible to me I think a lot
Tony: of people find this smell of cigarettes horrible but the number of people when
Tony: you're smoking cigars who will literally come up to you and and I love the smell
Tony: of cigars couldn't smoke one I love the smell of them oh.
Craig: Yeah cigars basically use the actual leaf whereas from what i understand cigarettes
Craig: basically use the plant equivalent of lips and arseholes
Tony: That is.
Arzurh: One plant i never want to
Tony: See right out there,
Tony: nothing but sell arseholes uh the other thing about cigarettes is that they're
Tony: full of chemicals cigars are in the most part have far less chemicals than the natural tobacco
Tony: and so then the tobacco can
Tony: have chemicals on it obviously from the spraying etc but
Tony: the actual they're not adding chem to
Tony: the tobacco when it's rolled whereas cigarettes we
Tony: have and you know a lot of chemicals that
Tony: actually add to that smell and that's
Tony: why it's quite much more civic a cigar obviously
Tony: cigar smoke is much more a lot of people have very fond memories of cigar smoke
Tony: so for none of the people i've met it's been smoking things like christmas because
Tony: their dad or their granddad will smoke a cigar christmas and so it can even
Tony: smoke really strong memories from their past for.
Craig: Me oddly enough it's my grandmother
Tony: Okay she.
Craig: Used to smoke big cigars when i was younger
Tony: I mean it's really cool for.
Arzurh: Me it's just every bar i have i have ever been in every leather bar with the
Arzurh: well not odd exception of massachusetts massachusetts bars are practically smoke-free
Arzurh: for the most part even when i was younger you would not get cigars as often
Arzurh: and then i moved to dallas and it's it's like oxygen it's everywhere okay
Craig: So can you smoke indoors in your state
Arzurh: Varies. Most of the states that still allow you to smoke indoors are in the South.
Arzurh: Again, it's that whole, the more liberal a state is, the more restrictive it tends to be.
Arzurh: Oddly enough, Texas, some of the cities like Dallas started to say,
Arzurh: hey, take it out to the patio.
Arzurh: But example here in the Portland, Oregon area, they actually don't have a route per se to the back room.
Arzurh: They've actually made it so that it's like covered-ish, but
Arzurh: it opens up to the sky which you would think is not a great tactical decision
Arzurh: in a place where it remains all the time but that lets them get around the law
Arzurh: then they say no no no i know that's a room i know it's connected it's got kind
Arzurh: of a roof but as you can see you can look up and see the clouds and everything
Arzurh: that's a patio and then they yeah
Craig: You find some places in england doing that because obviously we've had a smoking
Craig: ban for quite a while back in my hometown there was quite a fancy hotel.
Craig: And they had a smoking room that they could get away with because it was technically
Craig: a yurt, which was a non-permanent tent-like structure with an open hole in the middle.
Arzurh: Yeah, that's actually, as you may or may not know, Arnold Schwarzenegger,
Arzurh: former governor of California, was very big on cigars.
Arzurh: But of course, when he was governor, he couldn't have them inside.
Arzurh: So he arranged to have a tent like that set up outside of the building so he
Arzurh: could go out with others and partake I
Craig: Mean Tony you probably know more than me you can smoke in a designated sampling area yes
Tony: So you do get some cigar shops have cigar rooms smoking rooms,
Tony: They, they seem to get around that law by no employees being in that area when
Tony: people are actually smoking because the smoking laws that were brought in,
Tony: weren't brought in to protect the drinkers in a bar. They were brought in to protect the staff.
Tony: So, they, that, that by having no staff in that area within a private members
Tony: club, you, they sort of skirting around it, but it's not an easy thing to maintain.
Tony: And it's not an easy you couldn't do it say in a bar because it's the the law
Tony: starts to say that you have it has to be outside and they've even tightened
Tony: up on what their definition was because so many bars started to have very sort
Tony: of rooms and again but but when you start to look at europe,
Tony: overall it varies tremendously just look in berlin for example you'll have bars
Tony: which are not have smoking rooms so you've got prince connect which has a smoking
Tony: room at the back You've got New Action.
Tony: It has a New Action, which you can smoke everywhere. You've got smoking cigars.
Tony: You've got Munchpunz, which has a smoking room at the back. So it varies.
Tony: Literally, the rules. Schoenner is smoking everywhere. So it depends bar to bar.
Tony: So there are the same laws because they're European laws, but they apply differently
Tony: in different countries. So, wow.
Tony: I love the fact that there are bars in Berlin where you can smoke and do smoke play.
Tony: It's fantastic. and the reaction is fantastic for that. Such a sex...
Craig: Oh, yes.
Tony: And that's why they hold smoke out in Vegas, because Vegas is one of the few
Tony: states now where smoking indoors in bars is permitted.
Arzurh: Yeah, Vegas has a lot of laws like that for a variety of reasons,
Arzurh: but my friend Bob goes to smoke out every year and has a fantastic time.
Craig: Yeah, so is there anything else to cover or...?
Tony: So, you get the list, storage?
Craig: Yeah, sure. Okay. So...
Craig: So say you've got a cigar collection going, what do you need to know to store them properly?
Tony: Moisture. That's the big thing when it comes to storing cigars.
Tony: Cigars will dry out quite quickly if you don't keep them moist.
Tony: So if you're talking about a few cigars, then your periods, you can keep them
Tony: in specialist packages, which have a piece of cardboard in the back bits of permeable plastic.
Tony: Looking to start a cigar collection, especially if you're going to start buying,
Tony: You talked about mixed packs of cigars, so you're going to be buying boxes or
Tony: numbers of cigars at a time.
Tony: It is definitely worth investing in a humidor. You can get them very cheaply.
Tony: They're not, they used to be very much a status symbol. They'd become far more
Tony: common and therefore they'd become much, much cheaper.
Tony: You can get them off eBay, so really reasonable amounts.
Tony: And they are definitely worth the investments.
Tony: Without without a humidor a cigar will go from a beautiful thing to smoke to
Tony: a twig that will burn really quick you might as well just smoke a piece of rolled up newspaper,
Tony: it's really it will have no pleasure it will have no taste and it will be pointless
Tony: and and you probably won't get to smoke it all because it will be cracking as
Tony: you smoke it and you know It just becomes unmanaged.
Arzurh: A waste of investment, so to speak.
Tony: Absolutely. So when you start to think, to talk about, there's two ways of keeping them moist.
Tony: Most humidors have basically a little plastic tub.
Tony: Those are filled with silica gel, Oasis, the green stuff they've got flowers in.
Tony: Yeah, that basically is something that will hold the water and release it.
Tony: And you use distilled water.
Tony: Therefore, you're not building up any, any calcium within the,
Tony: within the, the humidor.
Tony: So they're pretty straightforward. You can get gel packs.
Tony: I'll be honest. I've not had a great deal, some great experience with gel packs.
Tony: I've had other people who rave about them.
Tony: Maybe I haven't tried the right brands, but it's, so I'm still old fashioned.
Tony: Can just keep pouring in my distilled water just check it at least once a week
Tony: and then you start to talk about how much do you want it and again this will
Tony: affect the flavor of the cigars and yeah not that again.
Arzurh: Sorry he said
Tony: Yeah um that will affect the
Tony: flavor of the cigar so um most people
Tony: are somewhere between 60 and 80
Tony: i'm bang in the middle i try and keep mine around
Tony: 70 it's not an uncommon number it's
Tony: probably the most common percentage in
Tony: terms of sense humidity so it it
Tony: you've got to find a way a good way to keep them because without
Tony: a good humidor they won't last very long and you would have completely wasted
Tony: your money and if you then start smoking them you'll probably become very disappointed
Tony: very quickly especially if you're a beginner and you start thinking why do people
Tony: smoke these they're disgusting it's it is i say definitely worth investing in a humidor.
Tony: The other things to invest in are a good cigar lighter. You can get them quite cheaply.
Tony: I've seen them in the US, really nice ones, about five dollars in cigar shops.
Tony: What you want is a cigar lighter that looks more like you could make creme brulee with it.
Craig: Yes, they are mini blow torches.
Tony: They are. Right.
Arzurh: And from what I've heard, cigar
Arzurh: cutters are absolutely the worst thing you can do to light your cigar.
Arzurh: You cut the end and then light it with a standard lighter, doesn't that just damage the cigar?
Tony: Depends on the size of the cigar. So in terms of, there's two ways to prepare your cigar.
Tony: Obviously, cigar comes with an open end and a closed end.
Tony: The closed end, you want to be able to get oxygen through because that's the
Tony: end that's going to go in your mouth.
Tony: There's two ways of getting oxygen through, and that's either a cutter or a punch.
Tony: And they do what they say on the tin. really one cuts the
Tony: end one punches a hole in it with smaller size
Tony: cigars you have to cut them you can't punch them
Tony: they're virtually impossible to punch and they're certainly very awkward to
Tony: punch with larger gauge cigars you want to you want to punch them because to
Tony: cut them they tend to unravel more but again cutting and punching is often it's
Tony: more about personal preference i.
Craig: Have heard it
Tony: Does affect.
Craig: The flavor because what i've heard i don't know how true this is obviously i'm
Craig: not that experienced when you
Craig: punch it obviously makes a much smaller hole which concentrates the smoke
Tony: Yes and.
Craig: Intensifies the flavor
Tony: Is that true.
Craig: Would you say
Tony: Um yes it does and and again this is also it means that if you're newer to it
Tony: if you're beginning starting on a smaller gauge which you have to cut makes
Tony: it much gentler and a much easier smoke so it's,
Tony: some of it is experimentation to see
Tony: what your taste is which you prefer in terms of humidity
Tony: in terms of cutting the the trick with the lighting of a cigar as i say is to
Tony: use a really good cigar lighter which is a jet lighter you can get you can get
Tony: them in single double or triple I tend to use a triple jet because I use,
Tony: I prefer wider gauge cigars.
Tony: To light the cigar, firstly, you'll see people holding a cigar and lighting
Tony: the end before they put it in their mouth.
Tony: The reason for that is you want to make sure that you've lit the cigar.
Tony: Edges of the cigar quite evenly because if
Tony: you catch if you don't actually catch one of those edges
Tony: obviously it's not going to burn evenly so by being
Tony: able to catch all of the edges around first then put
Tony: in your mouth then breathe through to halt
Tony: to get some oxygen coming through and then finish off
Tony: lighting it and you'll see that as people do
Tony: that they will often turn the cigar and again
Tony: this is to make sure that your cigar is being made evenly because
Tony: you want the cigar to burn and if it's got it's going to have any chance of
Tony: doing that first and and also as you smoke cigar again continuing to and um
Tony: one of the things that you'll see doing as well to start smoking cigar smoking it might like uh.
Craig: Sorry tony you've gone very quiet and broken yeah
Arzurh: Same on this end as well
Tony: Sorry maybe you're back back okay
Tony: so let's show where you got to so i'm saying about
Tony: when you when people are um lighting a
Tony: cigar you'll often see them they'll burn the edge of the
Tony: cigar first and then they'll bring it in their mouth and they'll they'll finish
Tony: it off actually while they're smoking it again sometimes turning it to make
Tony: sure that it's lit evenly and And the reason for this is because you want the
Tony: cigar to be lit evenly, so it burns evenly.
Tony: But some cigars, as you're burning them, as you're smoking them,
Tony: they won't quite burn quite evenly.
Tony: You may get a lip. So sometimes you'll see people pulling out a cigar just to
Tony: take that little lip off.
Tony: Again, that's encouraging the cigar to continue from that point to burn more evenly.
Tony: So I'm actually just...
Tony: If you're interested in getting into cigars, just watching how people like their
Tony: cigars, how they maintain their cigar burning.
Tony: It's a really great way of just being able to pick these little tricks up.
Tony: And the other resource that's really good for this, obviously, is YouTube.
Tony: YouTube's great for if you want to learn about anything. And there are some
Tony: really good short videos on YouTube around how to cut your cigar,
Tony: how to maintain your cigars, how to smoke them.
Tony: It is any form
Tony: of BDSM it's about understanding the
Tony: equipment that you're using how to apply that and then the discussion and consent
Tony: and cigar play is no different it really is about understanding the cigar it's
Tony: about understanding the equipment that you're going to use whether that be a
Tony: punch or a cutter using the right type lighter and then understanding how that cigar is burning.
Tony: And what are you going to do during that play are you going to flick ash onto
Tony: your boots and have them lick it off are you going to be getting them to smoke
Tony: take your smoke are you going to get start to get heavier you're going to start
Tony: to ash them how heavy can they take that how hot,
Tony: can they take the ash the more you spread the ash over the more it's going to give an
Tony: instant feel of heat but not it's not going to burn them and then so it's about
Tony: the consent It's about understanding what their ability is and even down to
Tony: an understanding how much they've taken cigar smoke before.
Tony: But as I say, if they've, if they've never taken cigar smoke and you put them
Tony: in a gas mask and start feeding them lots of cigar smoke, you may have to clean
Tony: your gas mask out afterwards because it's not going to be.
Tony: So as a, as a top start off like for yourself, start off with smaller gauges, shorter sizes,
Tony: get used to smoking it get used to lighting it get used to the feel of it and
Tony: it's the same with playing if someone's new to it start them offline,
Tony: start them off easy and then let them build up.
Craig: Brilliant well thank you so much for coming on our show today i've learned so
Craig: much and i look forward to trying out all of this
Arzurh: Knowledge you can
Tony: Use that's what it's about.
Craig: Oh yes so if our listeners wish to contact us our email twitter and facebook
Craig: will be in the show notes you can contact me personally on twitter at
Craig: craigthemouse and you can contact me on mastodon at bootbackclub at kinky.business
Arzurh: And i am at arzer on kinky.business and you can find me on telegram as at artairdl
Arzurh: feel free to send me a message thank
Craig: You tony how can people reach you
Tony: The easiest way is through twitter i'm at daddy with the the a is a four so
Tony: it's d4 ddy underscore t so that's brilliant if anybody has any questions just
Tony: drop me a message more than happy to help yes.
Craig: And until next time happy smoking