Craig: hello and welcome again to the kinky boys podcast.
Today we are talking about gay bath houses or saunas depending on
what, which country you're from.
So before we get to that, this episode, we're going to thank our daddy's
favorite patrons, but we're going to do it in a special thematic way because
we're going to go through a virtual tour of the kinky boys sauna complex.
So, come with me.
As we start, of course, past the door into the locker room, we have
Southern Suiter putting away his impeccable suit in exchange for a towel.
As we leave the changing rooms and go through the chill out bar area, we
have Hillary P with a cocktail in hand.
Next level down, we go through the communal shower
section, where we see Brian C.
soaping himself up.
Past that, relaxing in the dry sauna room, is our newest members,
Frank Slimleather and Adam NYC.
Next door to that, we have the lovely Ochnurb, basking in the steam room.
Round the corner, down the hall in the dark cabin section, we
can hear Banjo, Stewie and Adam F., even if we can't see them.
And finally, joining me here in the bubbling hot tub, where we are recording
this very episode, is Hairy Hypnotist.
David: Well, hello, nice to see
Craig: Hello.
David: So
Craig: Yes.
David: talking about saunas or bath houses and thought it would be nice to talk
about sort of a guide or an introduction for people who are curious about them
and have never been to one before.
Craig: Yeah, because it can be a very nerve wracking experience and
it's one of those things where often you're expected to know the way of
doing things, when no one's actually s
David: there's a lot of
Craig: Yeah.
David: communication, a lot of
Craig: Yeah.
David: assumptions and expectations of people.
And that can be difficult if you don't know what you're doing.
Craig: Oh yeah.
It's like, I remember one of the most helpful videos I ever saw was it's
by a creator called Leather Edge.
He does the Full Cow podcast.
And he actually did a guide to physical and verbal cues
when cruising out in public.
And this was amazing because no one had ever sat down and explained like, well,
this is what this eye movement means.
And this is how you do the, you know, this is how you do the dance
of cruising someone in public.
David: Interesting.
I haven't seen that.
Maybe I should.
Craig: Yeah.
I'll sit, I'll try and dig it up and send it to you.
But I remember a lot of people have the same reaction where like.
You're expected to know these things in the sort of gay bi
world, but no one has ever actually sat you down and explained them.
David: Yeah.
Craig: So,
David: So
Craig: let's exp
David: to be the same sort of thing, but Craig, can you make sure that there's
a link to that video you just mentioned in the liner notes for this episode
Craig: We'll do.
David: Excellent.
Craig: Yes, we'll do.
So, I think, let's do a little background.
I've done a tiny bit of research on this for history.
And it's actually quite interesting about the names.
So in America these are typically called bath houses.
In the UK, we call them saunas.
However, the term bath house originally came from Britain.
So back in the 1800s, where you had large builds ups in cities like London,
Birmingham, that sort of thing, no one had indoor plumbing, but you had a
large amount of people living together.
So there was.
The public bathhouses where you would go to wash and clean and shower and bath.
David: So it was
Craig: of the,
David: purely functional in nature.
It wasn't so
Craig: yes,
David: It was about hygiene.
Craig: exactly.
But of course, with these things, whenever you get something crop up,
you also get the more premium version.
In this case, in sort of 1800s to Victorian England were the Turkish
bathhouses, which tend to be, tended to be a lot nicer, like better tiling.
They also had things like massage and that on hand, if you're willing to pay extra.
David: have that sort of thing today.
I think they're called hammams.
Yeah, it's, it's the same concept.
It's like a bathhouse, but with a tendons to give you massages
and do things like that.
Craig: Exactly.
And some of these Turkish bathhouses got a bit of reputation about
the clientele that went there.
One of a recorded note was the Savoy Turkish baths in Jeremy Street.
And this was around 1930.
Which of course, you know, you got a reputation of that's where the
homosexuals go to cruise each other.
And so.
That's the, they further gain that sort of clientele.
Now with the introduction of indoor plumbing, public bath houses as a
business started to really dwindle.
So the few that were left actually kind of deliberately started turning
a blind eye to sort of male, male sexual activity because they were
customers that kept coming, even if they didn't need a bath house anymore.
And so a lot of,
David: else.
Craig: Yes, so a lot of bathhouses carried on this way.
By the 1970s bathhouses were mostly a big center for sex.
This was, you know, sexual revolution, a lot of homosexual acceptance
coming out before the AIDS crisis.
And yeah, these would actually be quite successful.
And some were actually quite large.
They had full stages and restaurant sections, some of them.
And famously.
Bette Midler got her start singing at gay bathhouses.
Yep,
David: Midler, but I did know that some bathhouses had live performances of like
theater and comedy and things like that.
Craig: they, they were way more community centers than what
people might expect nowadays.
But yes, Bette Midler got her start there and she said she was very
proud to be known as Bathhouse Betty.
David: I like
Craig: Yeah.
Then of course came the AIDS crisis and a lot of bathhouses got shut down.
Very famously, San Francisco banned all bathhouses for a while
because they were seen as sort of major spreading centers of HIV.
That got challenged and eventually revoked because people made the
point that you're not getting rid of people having sex, you're just
removing a safe and constructive environment for them to have sex in.
David: Yeah.
Craig: And like, bathhouses, you can do safe sex education, you can hand out
condoms, gratis, that sort of thing.
And even today, a lot of sexual health awareness groups have days where they
go to bathhouses and do things like on site STD testing, and handing out
condoms and, like, getting people signed up for PrEP, that sort of thing.
David: Nice.
Yeah, I've seen that
Craig: Yeah.
Yeah, so that's sort of the rough history I've been able to piece together.
I will put in the show notes the articles I cited for this because I am not James
Somerton and I do cite my sources.
David: Good for you.
Craig: Yes.
So let's move on to sort of our basic guide for people going to
the sauna for the first time.
Yeah.
David: a couple of different kinds of saunas or bath houses, it probably helps
to get an idea of what kind of facility you're entering, you can either get a
feel for that ahead of time by scoping out reviews and the way that the establishment
advertises itself, or you can pretty clearly tell once you enter as well.
So different saunas are optimized for different purposes.
For starters, there are some saunas, particularly in Europe, that are non
sexual, people do take off their clothes and sit together in rooms with steam,
but the expectation and the culture, and usually even the rules, expressly
prohibit any sort of sexual contact.
It is a non sexual relaxation activity.
Craig: Yeah.
David: hand, there are also saunas that are very clearly and explicitly sexual.
So having some idea of which establishment that you're going into probably help.
In my experience, they will tell you very clearly and explicitly
if sex is off the table.
And if they don't say anything about that, especially if they say something like this
is a sauna for men, then that probably means that you're going to a sexy sauna.
Craig: And like, a lot of the sexy saunas, at least, like, in the
UK, very prominently advertise in local gay mag Like, we have a lot
of free community magazines, and they advertise heavily in there.
So, it's very easy to find the sort of ones that are
explicitly for male male sex.
David: Exactly.
It's, it's usually not that hard to figure out the difference.
Craig: Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Mm
David: going to talk about the saunas that are purely for relaxation and not
about sex, because I don't think that's so relevant for the topic of this podcast.
We're going to talk more about the saunas that allow and even tacitly
Craig: hmm.
David: sexual contact between the patrons.
Craig: Yeah.
David: However, it's important to point out that just because
you go to a sauna where that sort of sexual contact is allowed.
does not mean that it's required.
It is never required.
You should always feel comfortable relaxing, watching, and just
doing whatever you want to do in a sauna environment.
And It doesn't need to involve any sexual contact with someone else.
If you ever feel pressured to have sex, particularly pressured by
someone else that you don't want to have sex with, that is a problem.
And if
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: on a recurring basis, it should be reported to the people who run the
sauna, because that's not a, not a safe or a healthy environment to be in.
Craig: No.
And this is the thing a lot of people go, even though they're explicitly
sexual spaces, and I myself am like this, where I go just to chill out.
David: Yeah.
One of the nice things about a sauna is it's an environment
that is designed for relaxation.
Craig: hmm.
David: And some people, when they're around people that they find attractive
and they're in a relaxed environment, their thoughts naturally turn more
sexual, which is why this sort of thing tends to happen in a sauna environment,
Craig: Yeah.
David: but it's never required.
I would say that the three main intentions you might say of a sauna
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: Relaxation, socializing, and sexual activity.
Craig: Yes.
David: can dip into any or all of those buckets and have a nice time,
no matter how you spend your time.
Craig: Yes, and I think it's worth saying on this point that a lot of saunas have
sort of a graded a graded way of sexual interaction, and what I mean by that is,
Often explicitly you'll have sort of a chill out section where no sex happens.
Often these are lounge like, they have sofas, you have what I found for
most venues is like they all have a big jacuzzi and that is No explicit
sex, but this is where people often go to flirt or just enjoy the jacuzzi
David: Absolutely.
Craig: sort of section.
And then in the more closed off areas, like saunas, steam rooms, you may get sex.
And then there's often cabin areas where they are explicitly sexual.
So if you're worried about going like, Oh God, I feel nervous in a
sexual environment, Remember it's graded, like, you can just hang out
in the jacuzzi for a bit and get it climatized, you're not going to
instantly be faced with people fucking.
Most of the time.
There are exceptions, especially when it gets busy, but most of the
time the sauna's the flirtation period, not the sexual zone.
David: Yeah, I would agree with that.
Craig: Yeah.
David: but I think actually a good place to get started is not the various
different areas inside of the sauna, but what happens when you first enter.
So, typically, when you go in the main entrance of the sauna, there's
some kind of desk with someone who will accept a fee for entrance and
how much they charge ranges wildly,
Craig: Mm hmm.
Mm
David: you are and what the quality of the sauna is, but they will
typically ask you to pay for entrance.
And they will give you a fresh towel so you don't need to bring anything yourself.
Craig: hmm.
David: you some kind of key or access to a locker in their locker room.
So, once you get inside, you typically start in the locker room.
And actually vividly remember the very first time that I ever went to a sauna.
Again, because nobody told me these things, I made the assumption
that the lockers were optional.
assumed that you could just bypass the lockers and walk into the
rest of the sauna fully clothed because nobody told me otherwise.
Turns out that is a big cultural faux pas.
you enter a sauna and you go to the locker room, the expectation, the norm,
is you're supposed to take off all of your clothes, underwear included.
Put them in the locker and wrap a towel around yourself, the towel that they
give you at the check in desk so that essentially you are fully naked except
for a towel and you can wander around and dip in the water without having
to take anything off except your towel and enjoy being in an environment
where clothes are not a factor.
So the changing room is a place where you see people taking off
their clothes and getting naked.
And depending on how social the sauna is, sometimes this
happens in complete silence.
Sometimes there are guys who know each other, who are chatting with
each other while going through this.
It really depends.
But though people might feel a little shy and inhibited about taking off their
clothes, it's a little easier to do so in a room where that is the expectation
and the norm, and everyone is doing this.
So would say even if you're one of those people who's a little shy about
that, don't worry too much about it.
And if you really want to like carefully wrap your towel around you to be sure
that nobody sees your dick while you're taking off your pants, you can, most
people don't seem to care too much about that, particularly because in
not too long, there may be someone that they want to show their dick to.
Craig: Yeah.
It's a fairly open and free environment.
Again, along with clothes, you are expected to put your phone away,
David: Yes, that as
Craig: which, because obviously it's a big thing, phone cameras.
And I know certain saunas go the extra step of you have to hand in your phone.
When you pay at the front desk now as basically a security
measure, because, you know, most people do put their phones away.
Unfortunately, you do get some people that try and film people, which, yeah.
David: it's it's definitely a privacy violation and
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: is that what happens in the sauna is private and will not be recorded.
Craig: Yeah.
So, so that's the locker room section.
What's next?
David: you've taken off all of your clothes and you're wearing just
a towel typically the next area that you enter is going to be some
kind of a social relaxation area.
There might be chairs and tables, there might be couches, there might be just like
benches against a wall, but typically it's a place to just sort of sit down, get your
bearings, and decide where you want to go next, because most saunas have several
different options for different, I'm going to call them relaxation experiences.
That
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: of weird, but I can't think of a better way of putting it.
So it, it's going to depend on the layout of the sauna, but typically once you exit
the locker rooms, you have some sort of a central area, some sort of a social space.
And as Craig was saying, this is a space that is sort of a gradation of sexuality.
It's, it's not very sexual in this space.
Typically it's a place where you can say hi to other people, where you can relax.
Some saunas also have a place where you can buy food and drink,
either from a vending machine or sometimes with an actual kitchen
that will cook for you and bartenders who will prepare drinks for you.
I've really enjoyed coming to Europe and discovering that there's a lot of saunas
that have this sort of like, prepared food and drink service for you in the sauna.
I thought that was really cool because in the U S where I grew up, the only
saunas I had ever been to only had vending machines for this sort of thing.
Craig: Yeah, no, it's really nice and, like, the food quality varies.
Sometimes the best you'll get is a sandwich.
Sometimes you get full plated meals which are really good quality.
David: Yeah.
I mean expectation from the sauna perspective is they want people to
have a good time and want to come
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: and again, particularly because they charge for entrance.
So I think that investing in the infrastructure to provide a nice
meal and good drinks makes people enjoy the experience more and
what makes them want to come back.
So if you're lucky enough to go to a sauna that has that sort of food
service, you might find that the food quality is better than you expect.
Craig: You know, So a lot of them serve drinks and cocktails particularly.
Partially because some people like a little social lubrication, obviously
this should be enjoyed in moderation.
David: absolutely.
So.
In this central relaxation area, from there, you need to decide where you want
to go next once you're ready to move on.
And different saunas have different facilities, of course, but you're
typically going to have your steam room and your dry sauna, at least.
So the steam room, as the name implies, is a room that is full of thick, hot steam.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of steam rooms because the
steam makes it hard to see.
And for me, the thick air is a little bit hard to breathe even, but I know
that there are lots of people who enjoy steam rooms for precisely that reason.
that the lack of visibility can make it exciting to see shapes in the room
of other men who might be jerking off.
and the, the thick steamy environment can make it more exciting
and arousing for sex as well.
Personally, that's not my scene, but I know people who definitely enjoy that.
And then the dry sauna room is a room that is just like the steam
room, but instead of being full of steam, it's just dry and hot.
Craig: Yeah, this is also, sorry, this is also known as Swedish saunas.
They're
David: yes.
Craig: wood paneled with the coals or simulated coals to produce dry heat.
David: Yes.
And the expectation is that you sit down, enjoy the heat sweat, that's part of it.
And, sometimes look at the other people as well and enjoy them as well.
Yeah.
Craig: Yes, like, I've seen other people playing in the dry, dry sauna, and I
have to say, that's a bit beyond me.
The temperatures in there kind of put me off playing in that sort of environment.
David: I think some people, some bodies are more sensitive
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: others.
And like you, I typically don't play very much in these rooms that are very hot.
They are nice to go into for brief periods of time to experience that temperature
difference, to sweat for a bit, and then to cool off in a different room.
I'm not a fan of playing in those rooms very much, but exceptions happen.
Craig: Yeah.
Typically near them, depending on the quality of the sauna, there will
be either a plunge pool or a plunge shower where it's literally you douse
yourself with a lot of cold water straight after coming out the sauna.
Which apparently is meant to have health benefits.
I'm not sure about the science around that, but apparently they do.
David: I'm not sure either, but some people love it.
Craig: Yes.
And I think,
David: go ahead.
Craig: I think maybe next to that we should talk about a lot of
them have unique shower setups.
David: That's true.
Yes.
So these sexual saunas tend to have gang shower setups, which is to say a
room with multiple shower heads, side by side by side, without any division in
between the areas where people shower.
So that is.
Set up to encourage people to shower and soap up while standing literally
right next to each other, can sometimes result in some fun sexual opportunities.
So it's, as I mentioned earlier, it is never required to play with someone,
but it can be exciting to someone else soaping up and literally touching
themselves while under the stream of water and to do the same thing.
if that's your thing, then that's totally possible.
On the other hand, these shower setups are usually not fully occupied.
Except, except maybe during the busiest times.
But even
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: think of a time that I've seen a gang shower that was fully occupied.
Every single shower had had someone under it.
So if you're not looking for that, you can typically find a place
to shower that is at least some distance away from the other patrons.
So makes it
Craig: Yeah.
David: to get some separation and to avoid that kind of sexual
contact if you don't want it.
Aside from the saunas and the shower, there's typically also, again, depending
on which bathhouse you're going
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: there's usually some kind of submersible water available.
Whether that is a hot tub or a swimming pool or some kind of
lap pool or something like that.
I mean, these places are called bath houses.
So it does make sense that there would be something
Craig: Yeah.
David: that you could get
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: Sometimes these things are large, sometimes they're small, and usually
when they're on the smaller side, there's still enough room for maybe
two or three people to get into like a small hot tub or something like that.
And as a result, there's almost always signs up saying no sex in the hot tub.
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: End.
They have to do that for the simple reasons of hygiene, because when
you have sexual activity in water, there is one, a high chance of
bacteria breeding and causing all
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: And two, these saunas need to be cleaned.
And if you have spooge in the water, then that can back up into
the filters and it's just nasty.
Nobody wants that.
So.
Yeah, don't have sex in the pool or in the hot tub.
being said, sexual contact, touching, kissing, stroking, playing with
someone's body is typically totally fine.
Craig: Yeah, these are typically the flirtation areas where you like your
eye someone up and initiate things.
And then afterwards, like after a bit of touching and contact, you'll
often progress to sections like the cabin area or the dark area
or whatever they have available.
So shall we talk about the sort of dance and visual and physical cues you
might receive in these sorts of areas?
David: I would like to do that, but I think I'd like to continue going over
the different areas of the sauna first
Craig: Sure.
David: the topic unfinished.
Craig: So we will put a pin in that and come back to that later.
David: Exactly.
So aside from the water areas, as you just mentioned, Craig, there typically is
some kind of a darkroom area or cabins.
And that is a space where usually the lighting is a bit lower, the temperature
is cool and comfortable as opposed to the, the saunas that were very hot.
the expectation is that you can find other guys who are interested in
something more explicitly sexual.
And when you go into one of these spaces, that is really when the
different nonverbal aspects of flirting come into play, but we'll
get to that later, as I mentioned.
these spaces might be small, they might be large.
there is something referred to as a maze there, and a maze is just an
area of the dark room that has lots of twisty corridors and is intentionally
designed so that you get a little bit lost, so that you don't quite
know what's coming around the bend.
And that can also be exciting because you don't know who you might come
across or what the situation might be.
you You can find a semi private corner and start playing with someone.
Sometimes somebody else comes up and joins you, and that can
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: or awkward, depending on the person.
But it's called a maze for a reason.
Not because it's, it's legitimately difficult to get out of, but because
it's meant to feel like you're not quite sure exactly where you are.
And then typically either next to the maze or even as part of the maze,
there might be little cabins and those are semi private spaces with a door.
Sometimes they have locks available.
Sometimes they don't have locks.
But the intention that is that if you find someone that you want to play
with, two of you or more than two, can go into one of these cabin spaces and
have some sexy fun together in an area that is semi private rather than public.
Now, saunas don't want their patrons to be able to go in there and fully lock
the doors, both because that allows for some possibilities of, activities
that people don't want to happen like drug use or abuse in various different
ways, which is why a lot of saunas that I've been to don't actually have
locks available on these little cabins.
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: the door and you can maybe put something like a towel in front of it so
that it doesn't just swing open by itself, but you can't actually lock yourself in.
And that is typically intentional.
Craig: Yeah.
I know some saunas around London deliberately offer lockable cabins as
a premium feature you have to pay for.
David: Yes, that's true.
Craig: And yeah, the typical sort of social norm I've come across
is, If you see one of these non lockable cabins with towels hanging
over the door, that basically means occupied, leave them alone.
David: Yep.
People come up with all sorts of different systems.
And yeah, if there's someone clearly inside, even if the door
isn't locked, the, the sort of etiquette, the expectation is don't
go inside unless you're invited.
Craig: Yeah.
And there are ways to invite people in.
David: Absolutely.
I think that's everything I can think of about the different spaces
that you might find in a sauna.
saunas might have more to it, such as performance spaces, as we talked
about before, if there's like comedy or theater happening in the sauna.
And that's a lot of fun, but I don't think that's really related
to the topic at hand, which is more about flirting and sex in a sauna.
Craig: Yes.
So why don't we get to the sort of guide to flirting and signals
and sort of dances you can do
David: That
Craig: these sorts of spaces.
David: So people talk a lot about consent and consent is very, very important
in any sort of sexual situation.
But one thing that it's important also to consider is by voluntarily
entering a sexual space, such as a gay sauna, you are already providing
a certain level of consent to.
be in a space that is sexual to receive flirtations and sort
of implicit requests for sex.
Those flirtations and requests can be in the form of touches to your body.
So in a purely social situation, such as, I don't know, a kink festival
or something like that, it's very important to always ask permission
before touching someone else.
Thanks.
In a space that is explicitly sexual, such as a sauna, especially the dark
room or the maze area of a sauna, that level of consent is already
implied simply by you virtue, simply by virtue of you already being there.
As a result, perfectly normal and expected to reach out and touch someone,
even in a way that is somewhat sexual.
However, that consent can also be revoked.
if someone touches you in a way that you don't like, you can, and
you should move their hand away.
If they continue to do so, you can, and you should verbally tell them to stop.
But by being in a space such as a sauna or a dark room, are giving a certain
amount of permission for those sorts of touches to happen that can be exciting,
that can be scary, that can be both.
But I think that is the first thing to keep in mind, that this sort of
thing can and will happen, and it's a part of the nature of flirting.
Craig: Yeah.
And I think it's worth saying for people who have never experienced this,
Often when people like do the physical initiation, it's still in a staged
way, for example, when you're in the hot tub a way most people approach
people is they will start by putting a hand on the outside of your thigh
David: Mm hmm.
Craig: and wait for you to either dismiss them or let them carry on.
David: Yes.
Craig: that, they will move their hand forward.
further up, like to the inside of your thigh.
And again, check to see if you are going to dismiss them by like
moving their hand away or turning to them and shaking your head.
And if you allow them to carry on, then they start touching your cock and balls or
whatever genitals you have in that area.
David: Yes.
Typically you have to specifically indicate that you
do not want things to continue.
Mm hmm.
If you do not specifically indicate that, that is usually taken as implicit consent
for things to continue or even escalate.
So if you are in a space where you are physically close to other people,
such as in a hot tub or something like that, might start with that
sort of touching right off the bat.
If you're in a space where people are moving around, such as wandering
through the dark room or the maze.
It typically starts with more visual cues, such as where you look.
The idea in a situation like a darkroom or a sauna is if you are looking at
somebody that indicates a level of interest, and that interest could be
sexual in nature, particularly if your gaze travels down to the genital area.
If you are at someone's eyes and then maybe looking at his cock and then
looking back up at his eyes again, that's a pretty clear indication that you are
interested in something sexual happening.
Correspondingly, you do not look at someone and just pass them by, that's a
pretty clear indication that you are not interested in anything sexual with them.
What were you saying?
Craig: I was just going to say, I've heard that maneuver with the eyes basically
referred to as the eye bounce where it's Eye contact to get their attention,
look at their genitals to see, show what you're after, and then back up to their
eyes to, like, continue the interaction.
David: Exactly.
it doesn't have to involve any words spoken at all.
It can literally just be eye contact.
So what this means, if you've never done this before, is when you're in a space
like this, aware that if you look too long or too intensely at someone, are
going to think that you are interested in them sexually, whether or not you are.
And you can clarify with them, of course.
You can just, you can say something like, Oh, I just thought
that was a really nice tattoo.
I'm not really interested in doing anything sexual right now.
But they're going to assume, most likely, that you have a sexual
intent if you look at them too long.
Correspondingly, if you see someone attractive, But you're in a hurry and
you're walking someplace else and you don't spend any time looking at them
That person is going to assume that you have no interest in them whatsoever
Craig: Yeah,
David: So sometimes even if in a hurry You can just do a little
touch on his shoulder or on his
Craig: mm hmm,
David: Maybe a wink or something like that to indicate yes, I am interested in
you, but I'll be back later So So there's
Craig: yeah,
David: and as I talked about earlier, physical touch is sort of
accepted and implied that it's going to happen in a space like this.
Craig: mm hmm
David: that can be touches on the shoulder, touches on the
back, touches on the side.
Typically you don't start with diving right into the genitals.
You start with a different, less intimate part of the body.
But again, if that touch is well received.
Then, depending on the person, you could end up very swiftly being fondled by the
Craig: yes,
David: in.
Craig: mm hmm,
David: And similarly, a space like a dark room or a sauna is a space
where who's there understands that sex can happen and sex does happen.
Which means you can be sexual, even in a space that is more public.
By virtue of the fact that everyone who has entered has paid a fee, has decided
to be a part of this sauna experience.
so if you want to do something that is a semi public, as I would call it,
if you want to do something sexual in an area that is typically non sexual,
such as that initial socializing area, then people might react with
some surprise to see that happening.
But it's usually not actually a problem.
I've been in a situation where I found a guy in the social area who was just
super hot and relaxing naked with a drink.
And I asked him if I could get on my knees and suck his cock.
And he said, yeah, sure.
Why not?
Craig: mm hmm,
David: so there were a group of guys just sort of chatting with each
other in this social lounge area.
And there I was on my knees, sucking the cock of this guy I didn't know,
and nobody had a problem with it.
Least of all me.
Craig: yeah, mm hmm,
David: So it's going to depend on the situation.
Obviously, if inform you that your activities are making them uncomfortable,
then you should move on to someplace that is more private, such as one of
these cabins, if they have any available.
Craig: yeah,
David: I don't think you should be too scared or too nervous about engaging with
someone sexually while other people can see, especially because a lot of guys go
to saunas and other sexual spaces because of this voyeur, voyeuristic idea that they
Craig: mm hmm.
David: seen while playing with other guys.
Craig: Oh yeah, you definitely get people in areas that are there not
to hook up one on one but to be seen.
And to be observed.
And you also get people looking for different things.
Like a lot of people like, like to make a connection first.
As we said, they flirt in the flirtation zones, like the sauna and the chill
out area, where they'll like do the contacts, eye contact, that sort of thing.
And often like strike up a conversation for a bit.
Say, Hi, my name's Joe.
I did this.
You're very beautiful.
What's your name?
Other times people will just.
Go there for the anonymous sex.
You can see these a lot of the time particularly people who are hanging
around the dark sections and the cabins.
Often you'll get people who, I think of them as fishing.
Where like, you have people if they're tops or looking for non anal
play, basically stroking themselves.
David: Yeah.
Craig: And basically that is an open invitation to people nearby.
And you also get the bottom equivalent of often people will be face
down, arse up, waiting in a cabin.
David: Yes.
It's the sort of universally recognized symbol of somebody come and fuck me.
I don't care who it is.
Craig: Yeah.
So it's all what you're into.
David: Yeah, And some people enjoy something that is more private.
So they might ask someone to go to a cabin with them so that they can play together
in a place where it's harder to be seen.
Some people enjoy something more public to, you know, get down
on his knees and suck someone right in front of everyone else.
It really depends on what you're into at that moment in time.
Craig: Yeah, and they're in between spaces, like we've talked about cabins
and dark rooms, sometimes there are cinema rooms where there will be a pawn playing.
And these are often quite small, so you're still technically in public,
but also it's a limited audience.
David: Well, I would say semi public
Craig: Hmm.
David: this is not
Craig: Hmm.
David: public space.
Everyone who's in the sauna is someone who has paid to be
Craig: Yeah.
David: So I would say it ranges from semi public to semi private
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: in some cases, fully private if you've paid for a cabin room that locks.
Craig: Yeah.
I would also like to go into certain behaviors you shouldn't do.
If someone has shown you no interest, please do not follow them around.
David: Yes.
Craig: I know it can be tempting, especially for people we find very
attractive, to think well maybe if I just hang around them a bit
longer, they will start to notice me.
Typically, if that's happened, they have noticed you and are not
interested, and I feel it's best to leave them alone, as it can feel very
uncomfortable being followed around.
David: Very true.
But I will counter by saying while you
Craig: hmm.
Mm hmm.
David: behavior, it's perfectly fine to, like, if you notice this
person come into the room where you are, perfectly fine to look at them
to see if they look at you back.
Because People change even over the course of a couple of minutes or a
couple of hours to decide who they're interested in and what they want to try.
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: don't be aggressive about your interest.
If someone's made it clear that they're not interested in
you, then don't go after them.
But you also don't have to shut them out either.
Maybe they'll decide later on that actually right now they are in the
mood for someone who looks like you, though they weren't 20 minutes ago.
So.
You can still be open to that possibility.
Craig: Certainly.
David: Anything else that you think is a bad idea in the sauna?
Craig: I mean, that was the big thing on my mind.
David: Yeah.
Craig: Yeah.
And just remember if there's ever confusion, ask for verbal confirmation.
David: Yeah.
Craig: Like, if you're, yeah, if you're not really able to read body signals
well, or you're a bit confused, just ask.
You are allowed to say, is this all right?
Or, I would like to play more with you.
Like, it's not a hard rule that everything has to be physical signals.
Like, verbal communication is still a big part of this.
No,
David: Messes happen.
It's an unfortunate part of life and of the body, but it's true.
Sometimes you want to play with someone and you want to engage in some anal sex,
and it's not as clean as you would hope, especially in an environment like a sauna
where people have to travel to get there.
Someone who's a bottom might have cleaned out at home, but maybe they don't have
the opportunity to try that again once they're actually in the sauna environment.
Some saunas offer that, others do not.
If you find yourself in this situation where things have gotten a bit
messy, Don't freak out about it.
It's, it's unfortunate, but it's a part of life.
And especially when you're in a sauna, which is all about cleaning
yourself and having showers available and it's okay to, you know, go to
the shower and clean yourself off.
And that can even be kind of fun.
I would say, yeah, just be aware that sometimes this happens.
If it's a really big mess, then you can notify one of the staff of
the sauna to say, Hey, this cabin that I was in maybe could use some
cleaning they will take care of it.
I guarantee you, this is not the first time this sort of thing has happened.
Craig: it's part of their job and like a lot of these saunas are
open 24 hours a day so they have to actively clean these places.
Like, you'll see them going around sometimes that certain hours with
the jet wash, cleaning things down.
David: Yes, incidentally a good way to tell who is a customer or a patron
of the sauna versus who works there is typically the patrons are naked
except for a towel and the people working there are wearing clothes.
Craig: Yes.
David: if you see someone walking through the sauna while fully clothed,
typically that means that they work for the sauna and they are there to pay.
Do some kind of maintenance or cleaning or something like that, is
another reason why they don't allow us patrons to just bypass the locker
room without taking off their clothes.
Like I did the
Craig: Yeah.
David: Yeah, I think that's all of the behavioral stuff that we need to talk
Craig: Yeah.
I mean, as always, if people have questions, you please feel free
to write in any social medias or our email is available to you.
We're happy to go back to these sorts of things and answer further questions.
David: Absolutely.
Craig: As a way to cap this off just to give a little fun thing, I wanted to go
over, what do we think makes a good sauna?
David: Well, there's a lot of different aspects of that.
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: And fundamentally, it comes down to something that you can't control,
which is the other patrons at the sauna.
Craig: Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
David: whether you find people who you enjoy spending time with, either
socially or sexually, whether you don't.
But considering that there's not much that we can do to control
that factor, there's other factors available that we can look at as well.
Mm
Craig: I mean, there are things you can do to predict that.
There are certain times of day where certain people come through.
Like sauna's location.
Mm hmm.
Like for example, there's a great one in London called Pleasure Drome, which
is literally under one Waterloo station, which is one of the main terminals
in and out of London for commuters.
David: hmm.
Craig: And so, after, like, after 5pm, you get a lot of different
people all from the office jobs.
Going there.
And you get a lot of different body types.
Same with, I know, saunas.
There's one in central London, which tends to have a large variety of body
types and ethnicities compared to the others but also on the weekends
that weekend times tends to, everyone tends to be a bit, I don't want to, I
don't want to sound nasty around this, tends to be of a certain body type.
David: Okay, I think you might need to clarify a little bit
because I don't know what you mean.
Craig: Basically skinny, white, gay.
David: I
Craig: And, and I have had past experiences that weren't that great
when I came in when a crowd was particularly of that body type and
quite judgmental of people who were not.
David: yes.
Craig: then I have other, had other times when that has never been the case.
Mm-Hmm.
David: One of the things that I
Craig: Mm-Hmm.
David: really like about Sonos but can occasionally be a problem
Craig: Mm-Hmm.
David: is that saunas draw a very wide range of people and
Craig: Mm-Hmm.
David: backgrounds, different ethnicities, different ages,
different sexual preferences.
And it can be really nice to go to one of these events and find that there's
a lot of people there, including people that maybe you wouldn't normally
be attracted to, you can sometimes discover that actually this person is
is piquing my interest, even though I never would have expected to be
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: On the other hand, sometimes you go to a sauna and it's full of people who you
are absolutely not attracted to, or you go to a sauna and you find that there's a lot
of people that you're attracted to, but none of them seem to be attracted back,
Craig: Yeah.
David: is also frustrating.
Craig: Like, if you are worried about your body type I know a
lot of saunas do themed nights.
Like, there are bear nights, twink nights, and so forth, where they
generally go, If you are inter if you are of this body type, or
interested in this body type, this is a specific night you may want to try.
David: Absolutely.
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: if you are chronologically on the younger side, let's say between ages 18 to
25, you can almost always get some sort of a discount or incentive to go to gay sauna
you want any night of the week, because these saunas are always trying to attract
the younger demographic for two reasons.
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: One is because they are seen as conventionally more attractive.
to many of the people who go to these saunas.
And the other reason is they're trying to get people to get in
the habit of going to saunas.
So if they get them young, then they can, you know, get that habit
established and they know that they're going to have someone who's going
to come back again and again, paying money over the course of years.
Craig: Yeah.
David: if you are one of those younger people.
Then take a look around and ask the sauna if they provide a youth
discount or anything like that You might just get lucky and find that
Craig: Yeah, typically if you have ID that says you're under 25,
you can probably get a discount.
Like,
David: But
Craig: that has been my experience.
Yeah.
David: Yeah,
Craig: Okay, what else?
So,
David: in
A good sauna
Craig: Yeah, let's do it as what, what would our perfect sauna all have?
David: Okay.
Well, I think the number one thing for me is a really nice jacuzzi
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: someplace to sit down, chat with other people in the warm water with the
bubbles and letting the bubbles obscure my hands a bit as I drift over the thighs and
backsides of some guys sitting next to me.
Craig: Mm hmm.
A big jacuzzi.
And I would ask that they keep it relatively hot.
I know a lot of places saunas keep it at a cooler temperature than normal,
more lukewarm than actually hot, but I would prefer it properly hot.
David: Yeah.
Another thing that's nice is a space where they actually
have food and drink available.
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: about before, not just from vending machines, but actually people who
can mix drinks and prepare nice meals.
Because even when you're going to the sauna, mostly for sexual purposes, it's
nice to have a space to rest, relax, and recover in between your adventures.
And to have something to eat as well, to keep your strength up.
Yeah.
Craig: Yeah.
And, you know, very comfortable space, sofas, recliners, that sort
of space, like, good mood lighting.
David: Yes, I would say the lighting is
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: There are going to be
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: are more social, that are more brightly lit, and there
are spaces that are more sexual, that's going to be a little more
dim, so that it's more exciting
Craig: Mm hmm.
Yes.
David: say.
Craig: Yes.
Also, as amenities go, definitely providing facilities to help you
clean out while you are there.
David: Yes.
Craig: This can be like one time douches.
Some places have essentially one time, one use shower shots.
You plug in and in their toilet cubicles and clean out there.
David: Mm hmm.
Craig: These can be very handy.
As you've said, it, you know, you can clean out and then travel in and go,
Oh, my body's progressed since then.
David: Yes.
Craig: Yeah.
David: it's also nice if you, excuse me, It's also nice if you have a place
that has condoms and lube available.
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: You want to be able to grab something quickly and close by when
you're in a sexual situation with someone.
Most of the places that I've been have some kind of a lube dispenser and condom
receptacle in the actual cabins themselves so that you can just grab a squirt of lube
when you're going at it and if you want to grab a condom, they're also right there.
Craig: Yeah.
I mean, that is very handy.
David: It's
If one of these places has at least one room where there's some kind
of sexual equipment like a sling
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: surfaces to make it more comfortable to have sex
lying down, that sort of thing.
Craig: Yeah.
One, one thing Sauna used to have, which I really loved, was a mirror room, where
essentially you had a raised padded desk in the middle, and the room was
like an octagon covered in mirrors.
And it's like, if you're into that, that is very fun.
David: That's super cool.
Craig: And it presides a nice contrast to the rest of it which
was a dark room, or darkened rooms.
Like, to have this bright space where it's full of mirrors and just like
being very visual was really good.
David: I think maybe the theme overall of what we've been talking about
is different people have different preferences when it comes to what they
enjoy and the best sauna is going to be large so that they have lots of
spaces for lots of different options.
Yeah.
Craig: of the flow of spaces.
Like, I've been to some saunas where it's actually quite boxy with narrow
corridors and none of the rooms are arranged in a way that would naturally
draw you through them in a sequence.
So, like, often you would do, like, jacuzzi, shower, saunas, so forth.
This wasn't particularly well laid out and it ended up being very blocky, people kept
bumping into each other as they did the rounds, it didn't have a good flow to it.
So I think a nice, the sauna thinking about the layout to
have a flow is very important.
There's also like little tricks like, so my favorite sauna so far I've
been to has been the Amsterdam sauna.
And they have lots of little things, like one of my favorite things is the
dry sauna and the shower section share a wall and that is a one way mirror.
So when you're in the shower section, it's a mirror.
When you're sitting in the sauna on the benches, you are facing watching all
these people have showers without them.
I mean, quote unquote, without them knowing, like most people have
been there know what it is, but.
David: the way that's achieved is just through the use of light.
because it's a material that is reflective on the side that's well lit
and transparent on the side that is dim.
they have the showers that are well lit and they have the sauna, which is dim.
So it works out being kind of transparent from the sauna side.
It's
Craig: Yes, it is cool, and it shows a real thought into the way it's laid out.
And another thing I've seen at the Amsterdam Zone, which I've not seen
anywhere else, for the steam room and wet rooms, they have spectacle racks by the
door, so people can literally take off their glasses and leave them so they don't
get steamed up, and that's one of those things that's, it's such a small thing.
But it really shows a level of care and people who have to wear glasses around in
these environments really appreciate it.
David: Absolutely.
Yeah.
Craig: Yeah like we talked about like having specific nights so people know what
to expect and like can go for a specific body type that they're into or they are.
I would actually like to see the return of live entertainment maybe.
David: That could be fun.
Yeah.
Craig: Yeah.
David: as long as it's in a space where it doesn't bother the people who aren't
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: that, because there's always going to be people who go to the sauna because
they want to have sex and nothing but sex.
And that's
Craig: Yeah.
Exactly.
I'm struggling to think of anything else I've not covered.
Do you have any more wants for your perfect sauna?
David: I'm not really sure.
Yeah,
Craig: I have thought of one more.
David: tell me.
Craig: Non slip flooring.
David: Hmm.
Yes.
Craig: been to several saunas where, like, they basically go for, like, the
slate grey tiles, and it looks very nice, it fits the aesthetic, and it's very
professional, and I expect they have it because it's easy to clean and wipe down.
But when you're constantly walking around with damp and wet
feet, it gets a bit treacherous.
David: Yes.
Craig: I wish saunas would put down non slip flooring.
David: I think most of them try to do that, but.
not sure how well that survives over long periods of time with thousands of
people walking over them with wet feet.
So I'm not sure.
Craig: Yeah.
David: Another thing that's also really nice in Asana, I've seen
one or two places that offer this.
professional massage service
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: Typically, this is a paid add on, so it's not included in the
admission of the sauna, but they might have masseurs there who you can
book a time slot with them and they will give you a full body massage.
Now, despite everything that we've talked about during this podcast, you might be
surprised to find that these massages typically are purely professional.
They are not sexual.
there's two reasons for that in my experience.
One is because it's not sexual.
As soon as you start accepting money for sexual services, then
that is a very different category of business that you're talking about.
Sauna owners can make the argument that they're accepting payment for people
just to enter and have a relaxing time.
And if they have sex, then that's up to them.
That's up to the patrons.
Craig: Yeah.
David: they're not paying for sex.
They're paying for entrance to a location.
On the other hand, if they were accepting money for giving sexual
massages, then it becomes something more akin to prostitution.
So, for that reason, they don't do that.
And the second reason is, frankly, if you're looking for sex, there's
no lack of sex in a gay sauna.
So, it's actually kind of refreshing, in my opinion, to go someplace where you
can get a really nice massage and either have sex before or after, but that's not
what it's about during the experience.
Craig: Yeah, and I think it is worth reiterating, like, again, you
don't have to go to these places with the expectation of having sex.
If it happens, it's fine, but these are places which are just nice to
hang out in and use the amenities.
David: That's true.
Craig: Yeah.
The one, oh, there is one more topic we haven't covered, which is
a lot of people tend to use these spaces in lieu of a hotel at night.
David: Hmm.
Craig: So, particularly, I don't know about the transport situations in other
cities, but in London typically there's a gap between the last trains around
like 1am and the first trains around 6am.
So what a lot of people do instead of paying for a full hotel, they just
pay for a sauna visit and chill out.
Typically you will be moved on if you fall asleep in these places, so don't
do that, but they are a nice, warm, cosy space to stay on the weekend.
Between the final and first trains.
David: the owners of these facilities typically don't want people
to go there in order to sleep.
Craig: Yeah.
David: that takes up space that someone else might want to use
for a private sexual situation.
And also because it's expensive.
going back to different categories of business, a sauna and a hotel are two very
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: and they probably have to get different permits and different
sort of regulations to do that.
So for various different reasons,
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: typically will not allow you to go to a sauna late at night and there with
the intention of sleeping in one of these cabins and leaving the following morning.
If that is actually what you want to do, don't tell them
that you're going to do that.
Craig: Yeah.
Like,
David: out, they will probably try to prevent that.
Craig: yeah.
Like, if you're caught out and stuck in a city, and it's like, on the weekend,
late, like, late at night, it is a good, cosy, safe place to wait out your time.
David: Yes, that's true.
Just don't tell them that you're like planning to fall asleep,
Craig: No.
David: you do.
Craig: No.
Ah, so, I think this is everything.
David: I think so.
Craig: Yeah.
As previously stated, if you have any more questions about
this feel free to write in.
We have our email, kinkyboyspodcast at gmail.
com.
You can find us on any social under kinkyboyspod.
And, yeah, that's it from me.
David: And for me, I'm David.
I go by the username
Craig: Mm hmm.
David: online.
You can find me on the hypnoguys.
com Mastodon server.
You can also email me at harryhypnotist at gmail.
com.
Yes,
Craig: Like, I know you enjoy Saunas.
I've seen you in Saunas.
Very fun.
Yes.
David: it's, it's definitely a nice hobby for me.
And I like going to new places and trying the local gay sauna there.
Cause be a lot of fun.
Craig: Yeah.
So yes I hope you enjoyed.
And always, listeners, play safe.